Hidetaka Miyazaki On The Duskbloods: “Maybe PvPvE Wasn’t The Best Way To Refer To It”

From Software's vampire-inspired multiplayer game The Duskbloods is difficult to quantify. Though it was billed as a "PvPvE game" when it was first announced, Hidetaka Miyazaki, president of From Software and legendary game director behind Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Elden Ring, now thinks that label might be "a bit confusing.”

The Duskbloods’ moment-to-moment gameplay may feel familiar to the developers’ other games, but that’s where the similarities end. The PvPvE multiplayer game plays out more like a board game with players completing objectives to earn Virtue points. The players with the least amount of points are culled, and the final three duke it out in an arena.

A few weeks ahead of The Duskbloods' closed technical test, GameSpot sat down with Miyazaki to discuss his inspirations, its ruined vampire world, and what From Software wanted to accomplish with its next multiplayer outing.

We have an article breaking down exactly how each match plays out, and our overall impressions of The Duskbloods’ technical test if you’d like to learn more.

[Editor’s note: This interview has been altered slightly for clarity and readability.]

GameSpot: Let’s start from the beginning: From Software games are known for their rich worlds. When it comes to world-building, where do you and the team typically start?

Miyazaki: This is probably something that we can say for a lot of our titles, but we tend to begin with the game design and the overall gameplay--what we imagine the game to look like, [and] how it would feel to play. In the case of The Duskbloods, we wanted dynamic, almost superhuman abilities, where the characters [can] jump really high, and a level of customization that fits contextually with [a] multiplayer game. Once we figure out that these are what the Bloodsworn are, then we take it from there--what are they going to be like, what world do they inhabit, [and so on]. First and foremost, it's the actual gameplay that we focus heavily on before we start to branch off into other things.

In terms of the maps specifically, Lowanro City is the map that you've played a bit so far. There are a few other maps that will be available in the final version, but the Dusk Battles themselves are essentially this sort of dusk of humanity, the ends of humanity, and the maps embody that. The reason we went with Lowanro City, at least for the network test, is that it's very symbolic and matches the aesthetic of vampires, but it's just one era, [and] just one aesthetic. Some of the other maps that will be available in the final game are from completely different eras, [with] completely different overall architectural styles. So there's quite a bit of variety to show that these are multiple different eras of humanity's dusk.

Considering there’s no fixed era, is it difficult building a cohesive world for The Duskbloods?

Specifically regarding the maps, there's a common theme of ruin and decay--the ruin and decay of humanity. And this is a common theme in a lot of our games as well. That definitely serves as an anchor that a lot of it can be based off of. Even if the aesthetics are slightly different, there's always going to be that as the base. You actually should be able to get a good sense of the similarities upon actually playing them.

Could you speak a little bit about some of your inspirations for The Duskbloods? I was reading some of your old interviews and you talk a lot about books and board games.

In terms of systems, such as the Virtue system, it's essentially a victory point system that you might see in a lot of different games. It doesn't really come from anything specific. The Sigil system as well is common in tabletop RPGs, and a lot of it is actually based on our own house rules for some of these games.

From a lore, aesthetic, [and] world-building point of view, there's nothing completely direct. Vampire stuff in general is something I'm very passionate about and enjoy reading a lot. There's definitely a bit of that that has rubbed off on me over time. [Some] things I enjoy include Vampire: The Masquerade, Fevre Dream [by George R.R. Martin], and Dracula Cha-Cha-Cha [by Kim Newman]. Not super old-school stuff, but a bit more modern vampire literature. It's all very indirect--things that have rubbed off on me over time and things I've always wanted to implement. So from an aesthetic point of view, there's definitely a bit of that.

When you are looking at these inspirations, whether direct or indirect, how do you ensure originality with your vision for Duskbloods?

In terms of world-building, it's always been a policy to avoid things that are too direct for a lot of reasons--like place names. Even if we're using a bit of it as inspiration, we try to avoid that. At the end of the day, [gameplay] systems are what take place, and that's the main aspect of the game. Even if we use something as inspiration, ultimately world-building comes second, and often they bend and change shape to fit the new systems. Having something too specific causes issues. So we tend to avoid it when we can.

From a personal standpoint, whenever I see something very interesting that I'd like to reference, it never really stops at that point. There's always things I look at and think, "Wouldn't it be cool if it was like this?" It changes shape in my mind into a constant flow of new ideas coming together and coming apart. Even without intentionally trying to make it original, it just becomes original because of all the other things I want to do with that idea.

When did you decide that you wanted to take on a PvPvE sort of style game?

The PvPvE [label is] a little bit confusing in the context of this game. It's not that we set out with that exact label when pitching to Nintendo. We had a couple of key things that we really wanted to do: The Sigil and Event system to create this [sense] of constant drama [and] excitement between players. The relationships, [and] the Virtue system contributes to that [as well]. It's not just 100% PvP; there [are] ways to win and enjoy the matches outside of simply playing against other players. Those were the things that we wanted to accomplish first and foremost. Saying it was a PvPvE game makes it sound like that's all that there is, and saying it's a PvE game doesn't really do it justice either. It's sort of just a combination of [the] two. Enemies specifically draw inspiration from our previous titles, and fitting them in made sense for our methodology.

When we originally announced the game as a PvPvE title, there was probably a lot of confusion thinking it was like an extraction [game], and there's definitely a sort of an association with that type of gameplay. We definitely look back at that now and think, "Hmm, maybe that wasn't the best way to refer to it." It doesn't do the game a lot of justice, but yeah, that was [the reasoning behind it].

I was reading an older interview where you said ensuring a game’s design is "elegant" is one of your key roles as a director. I was curious what, in your eyes, makes a game elegant, and how that applies to The Duskbloods?

As [I] mentioned earlier, the game design takes precedence and being fun is easily the most important thing whenever we're working out how to do a system or how to make a mechanic in the game work. So I would say that if it makes the game better for the player and it sort of enhances the level of fun, then a certain degree of elegance and refined aspect is something that we definitely would like to have, but it is never something that we require. If we're looking at a feature when it's still in development, at the end of the day, it being fun is by far the most important thing. Elegance definitely takes place after that.

Ultimately, from a director's point of view, the game being elegant, the systems being elegant, is something that is always nice. It's something that you kind of look at and think, "Wow, I really do want to do that." But like we mentioned, at the end of the day, fun is the most important thing. In ensuring that the game is fun and sort of pursuing that, sometimes you do sort of run into a system that is a lot more elegant than might have initially been intended. But it's never something that we look at as a determining factor if the system is good or not. If it's not fun, then it's not worth the time.

I was hoping you could talk specifically about the “Love Ephemeral" Sigil. Where did that idea come from? It's such a unique role in a game like The Duskbloods.

[Editor’s note: Sigils are equippable items that alter a Bloodsworn’s backstory and give the player a specific objective to complete during any given match. The “Love Ephemeral” Sigil tasks one player with proposing to another player with an emote-like gesture. For more details on how Sigils work, check out our preview.]

With that Sigil specifically, we are aware of how unique it is. At the end of the day, [we’re] trying to develop the system in a way where it [creates] unexpected drama. This excitement, not really knowing what's going to happen, in addition to [playing a role], we think that's really interesting. The Sigils are [intentionally] made simple in order to have that gameplay naturally develop and have [players] play [out roles]. We do think the Sigil system is unique to multiplayer games just in general, but we hope that it's something that players will enjoy.

Specifically referring to something like the Love Ephimeral Sigil, there's the person who has chosen that Sigil, but there's also someone with the passive version of that Sigil, someone who has not chosen [it], but for at least the course of that match, that's their role. Initially, we had designed it so that both players had to have that Sigil equipped, but doing so made matchmaking somewhat difficult and you sort of already knew what you were going to get in some cases. So we thought that having at least one of the players be randomized definitely created this sense of drama [in] not really knowing what your role might end up being, throughout the course of that match. It creates a lot more freedom in that sense as well, where you can have the Sigil you want, but you never know--you might also be required to or not required [to do]. You might have another role that you need to fulfill. We thought that that was a much better fit for the overall gameplay, and it sort of led to that drama that we were looking for.

Speaking of that drama, I love the idea that you have an objective other players don't necessarily know about. It adds so much tension!

That aspect of you knowing what your role is, [and] other players not knowing, [adds to the] drama as well. But the idea itself, we think, is very expandable. As players get used to the Sigil system, even more drama and even more aspects might become apparent, and it just sort of expands from there. So we really do hope players enjoy it.

When designing the different Bloodsworn, where do you start? Are you looking at playstyles from previous games and building characters around them?

It comes from two different angles: There's the aesthetic and visual design of the characters that we have an idea for, but then there's also, like you said, the playstyle--having the character that curtails to a specific mechanic more than, let's say, another character making a certain playstyle possible through that character. But generally, what we like to do is have multiple ideas or directions [when designing] a character, and then meet in the middle through collaboration [with] game design and visual design. [I’m] specifically in charge of both the art and the actual game design, so generally there's always going to be a nice blend there, and we avoid as much friction as possible.

Specifically, I wanted to ask about Zork. He's one of my favorite Bloodsworn! He has a very interesting design--where did that suit of armor concept come from?

I think the original design order for him was [to make] a Bloodsworn that has sort of risen from the deep sea. Of course, a lot happens from whenever you initially say that, and there's a lot of iterative design that goes on after that. I think the ultimate inspiration was Ultraman and Ultra Seven specifically, so it's those [kinds of] monsters that rise from the depths of the ocean. There [are] probably a lot of episodes where something like that happens. But yes, it was something like, "Oh, it would be kind of cool to have something that has a very similar kind of vibe to that." And that was probably included in the design notes at some point. The end result is a bit different, but that's kind of the general direction that that thought came from.

I particularly love his human-rocket ability where he flies across the map.

There's always going to be your traditional characters, especially in a vampire-like game. You have your traditional Victorian Gothic characters, and then you have other characters that are a little bit more off to the side with Asian influences [like Trang Lanh]. I think Zork is basically as far off to the side as you can get, where he's a bit of a wild card. It's always fun to have characters like that, and there's always people who like characters like that. We had mentioned earlier that some of the maps take place in different eras, so we wanted to have something that wasn't frozen in the Victorian Gothic era, but something that went past the Industrial Revolution as well, and I think Zork is probably the far end of that. [He’s] very different from what you would consider a traditional vampire, but he definitely has his place in the game, for sure.

I really want the multiplayer landscape of this game [to] almost feel like a festival. You have all these different kinds of characters, they feel and look very different from each other, and [they all come] together and it [feels chaotic]. Zork is definitely a piece of that--just a weird guy who's in the midst of it, right?

Is Zork’s beak-thing for drinking blood?

Yes, if you ever win with Zork, you'll get a cutscene that will probably reveal that a little bit more. [His] beak thing extends like a straw, and sucks [blood] up like a mosquito. That's probably another Ultraman reference of some sort, some sort of monster.

Is there a Bloodsworn you've gravitated toward while testing?

At least in the network test version, Zork is one of my favorites. I also like Layla the sniper. I like being able to peer at people from far away, and not necessarily get into the thick of it. I also really like Samir from a story/lore character perspective, but he's definitely a character that's a little difficult for me to [play].

What specific feedback are you looking for from this network test?

Bugs are probably the main thing we want feedback on, but in addition to that, [we’re very curious] to see how players approach Sigils: What their opinions are, how they're used, and things they like and dislike about them.

The next thing that we're curious about getting feedback on is in regards to the random and fixed elements of the game--enemy placement, spawn points, [and] things like that. [If it’s] too random, it [might be] a little bit much, but if it [it’s] too fixed, it's probably a little bit boring after a certain amount of matches. So trying to strike a really good balance there is something that [we want to get] right, and it's hard to know what that is until you've had people actually play the game and give their feedback.

From a narrative perspective, having things fixed definitely makes certain areas feel more important from a story aspect, but having it too fixed once again poses problems as well. So trying to find that balance from both gameplay [and narrative standpoint], is something we're really trying to get right.

This is the second game you've directed with "Blood" in the title. Is there something specific about blood that interests you?

Personally, that blood and darkness that comes with that is something I enjoy so there’s always going to be a bit of that. Specifically regarding blood in the titles of both of those games are that blood is quite different thematically. In Bloodborne, it's definitely more visceral, whereas in The Duskbloods, it's more tied to bloodlines, history, and the society. Even though it's the same word, they are both thematically quite different. Specifically regarding Bloodborne, it's this beastly curse, right? It's definitely not as “clean,” is probably the best way to put it.